Topic: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

Which do you believe is a more important standard MusicBrainz should live up to?
Accuracy to the Release information (CD/Vinyl liner notes) over all other info.
or
Accuracy to what we believe the artist's intent is, possibly changing the liner note information.

Kind of a loaded, and poorly worded, question.  But anybody who has been active in editing and voting on changes in the database knows what I mean.  Making MB basically an archive for liner notes, or correcting tags to what we believe the artist would want.  How you answer makes a big difference on how you vote changes to the database.

I only ask because I was re-tagging and came across "Foxy Lady" by Jimi Hendrix which is now called "Foxey Lady".  I grabbed my CD and sure enough, there was the "e" staring me in the face.  I've had it wrong all these years, all I could think was "So what's the meaning behind the odd spelling?  Foxy Lady is a commong slang term, Foxey isn't even a word."
After some quick searches it seems that it's actually a misspelling in the US version of a 1967 record that has been conitinued and spread to most official releases now.  Releases using the misspelling seem to outnumber the correct spelling so we would be changing alot of releases to go back to pre-1967 and you could almost say the history has made "Foxey" the correct spelling (we can't exactly ask Jimi how it should be).

Personally I think it should be changed and as it's documented as a misspelling I think many would a agree.  But this is a common artist, most of the time we're not so lucky to have well documented info about this kind of thing.  If there was no proof either way how would you vote?   And this issue can be expanded to cover many other track related issues; such as when a release uses an all caps or no caps font and it's decided that since it's on the CD it's artist intent even though not a single word in the liner notes has a capitalization.

I'd just like to see what some people's opinions are on the issue.  I don't think it's something we can make a set-in-stone standard; just about every case will have to be voted and debated on it's own (here's Jimmy's BTW).  But maybe we can at least get a sense for how everybody feels on it and we can all be on the same page.

My opinion is that database consistancy over liner notes in small cases such as these misspellings and font based capitalization issues (but stuff like this shouldn't be touched).

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Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

On a bit of a tangent, I'm actually in the middle of doing some album cover design work, at work. We usually don't do this kind of freelance gig, especially on spec - I don't know if this will actually be used on the release, and it's being done on a work for hire contract: We are being paid hourly rates, and the label (not the artist) will own all the work done, and hold the copyright on it.  Anyway, despite it being a little off our beaten track, and the unusually restrictive contract terms, I said yes to this one purely to get some insight on just how much artist intent goes into this stuff. 

I don't expect my experience to apply globally, but this is for a fairly mainstream artist on a big label, so it's a data point at least. 

So far I can say, even though I was initially approached by the artist (friend of a friend), and they had some ideas and input into the overall design, I've been given a lot of leeway.  Choosing the precise font, capitalisation and graphics choices have been up to me, and the text has been variously supplied and approved by artist management (the tracklisting itself, track timings, the song lyrics and obviously the album title, some of the liner notes, the "and this album wouldn't have been made without...." thanks text) and the label (the remaining liner notes, the precise and non-negotiable wording for the credits, and what additional texts they require to be on the back cover and spine.)  The label also supplied vector art for the CD logo, the label logo, the barcode, and very precise rules about what I was allowed to do with those, and where to put them.   

I ferretted out while discussing this that the artist himself is only getting this much input because he's had several albums out before, both solo and with a band and his current contract specifies that he can.  The first few releases, he pretty much got handed cover art by the label and told "This is what your album will look like". 

Obviously none of this applies to indie artists who produce their own covers, and it seems the more successful artists with multiple albums behind them, can wield more of their own clout.  I bet they are still hamstrung by the label when it comes to the _text_ however, because it is very clear to me that the label is very involved at all points.  However, they are not doing QA here, they are mostly thinking about covering their own butts legally: correct attributions, who gets a musician credit and who is only getting a 'thanks to...' (already had one alteration requested to the text involving those) correct writer credits on the songs, etc.  Most of the proofreading that's going on is either by me, or the Warner legal department.

To answer Kerensky's question, I'm far more inclined to want to correct known typo's in tracklistings than I was before.  In this case, widespread or not, we know it was a typo, other than for trivia gathering purposes, there's no real point in keeping it.

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

I don't really want to widen this discussion too much, but there's a related minority language issue. I've recently been fixing some song titles written in (Scottish) Gaelic and from time to time have had to go against the CD cover because what's written there just doesn't make sense. Most likely because whoever did the cover didn't speak the language. Here's a good example -- there's a reasonably famous traditional song called "Fear a' Bhàta" (the Boatman) the title of which often appears on covers as "Fear a Bhata" (man of his stick).

Anyway, with regard to the original question here, I'd come down on the side of eliminating what seem to be typos  unless there's some clear artist intent (which I think is often hard to prove without direct contact with the artist).

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

to be honest I think that the Jimmy case is not the one to use in this case, since 'Foxey Lady' is not the *only* strangely capped/named song of his. I only have to mention "Voodoo Child/Chile" "Moon, Turn the Tides... gently gently away" for a few, that are 'odd'.

In the liner notes of the "Electric Ladyland" issue I have (it's one of those remastered, gold re-issue ladedida deluxe edition type things) there are pages with scans of the *actual* papers of writing from Jimmy to the record making people; on what text he wants to put in the liner, and how and where he and the band wants the text/pictures.
It seems to me he was very much in control of these types of things. at-least for "Electric Ladyland".
It also strikes me as odd that if it was indeed a typo, really, then the remasters of those albums, would have it fixed. As they are done by his family/in memoriam, by people who did this *specifically* to honour him. Who did their uppermost to research it, and put info in the liner (I swear the liner is 37 pages thick)
just saying.

that is to say I don't disagree with the point that Kerensky is trying to make here, that if we *know* it is an unintended typo that possibly even aggrivates the artist (eg censoring) we should fix it.
I definitely agree to that.

~mo

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

Kerensky97 wrote:

Which do you believe is a more important standard MusicBrainz should live up to?
Accuracy to the Release information (CD/Vinyl liner notes) over all other info.
or
Accuracy to what we believe the artist's intent is, possibly changing the liner note information.

Kind of a loaded, and poorly worded, question.  But anybody who has been active in editing and voting on changes in the database knows what I mean.  Making MB basically an archive for liner notes, or correcting tags to what we believe the artist would want.  How you answer makes a big difference on how you vote changes to the database.

I only ask because I was re-tagging and came across "Foxy Lady" by Jimi Hendrix which is now called "Foxey Lady".  I grabbed my CD and sure enough, there was the "e" staring me in the face.  I've had it wrong all these years, all I could think was "So what's the meaning behind the odd spelling?  Foxy Lady is a commong slang term, Foxey isn't even a word."
After some quick searches it seems that it's actually a misspelling in the US version of a 1967 record

i don't think that link is anywhere near authoritative enough to warrant treating this as a misspelling. to make deviations from the sleeve you need a really, really good source.

IMO it's important to go from the sleeve unless there is a proven mistake. i have a record collection i don't want my mp3s to deviate from without good reason.

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

Whether or not Foxey Lady is or is not artist intent is, I think, at this distance from the original recording irrelevant.

It has been written as Foxey Lady for nearly 40 years now and if it has not been amended in all that time by whatever record company reissues it, time and again, then to my mind it is "Foxey".

As Jimi Hendrix has been dead for 36 years we will never know his intention and, therefore, we can only go by usage over intervening period between first release and now.

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

If I read that page correctly though, it was only on the second version, in the US, that it was changed to Foxey.  The first version, the UK release, had Foxy?

I don't have either of them though, so I don't really know :)

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

Foxy 45

Foxey Album

We could come up with a great page of odd music trivia with what we dig up on this site.

http://www.musicaememoria.com/tn_JimiHendrix-FoxyLady.jpg

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Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

I'm pretty new to the Musicbrainz site and Linar Note vs Musicbrainz is the most confusing thing for me. Obviously spelling errors and punctuation where not intended should be fixed.... but everything else should be as to artwork in my view.

One rule I don't like is the "(single version)"/"(album version)" subtitles on singles. I consider album version to be the definitive version, so singles that contain new edits should be labeled as "(single version)" but if its the same track as the album version then it does not need a subtitle even if the artworks says it. I have been corrected when making edits saying "(album version)" should be removed from titles.

The second is live tracks. If an album track is titled for example "Blah blah blah (live in Mongolia)" then that is what it should be in MB not just shortened down to "(live)". I don't see how everyone can have correctly tagged music when MB tell us that we should go against artwork. If people were discussing a particular track then they'd want to talk about it in its full title otherwise no-one would know what was getting discussed.

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

deadbysunrise wrote:

I'm pretty new to the Musicbrainz site and Linar Note vs Musicbrainz is the most confusing thing for me. Obviously spelling errors and punctuation where not intended should be fixed.... but everything else should be as to artwork in my view.

One rule I don't like is the "(single version)"/"(album version)" subtitles on singles. I consider album version to be the definitive version, so singles that contain new edits should be labeled as "(single version)" but if its the same track as the album version then it does not need a subtitle even if the artworks says it. I have been corrected when making edits saying "(album version)" should be removed from titles.

No version info should be removed from titles, if it says album version, it should be entered as album version. If it doesn't have any version info, none should be added (unless the lack of version info is an error that can be proven to be an error).

deadbysunrise wrote:

The second is live tracks. If an album track is titled for example "Blah blah blah (live in Mongolia)" then that is what it should be in MB not just shortened down to "(live)". I don't see how everyone can have correctly tagged music when MB tell us that we should go against artwork. If people were discussing a particular track then they'd want to talk about it in its full title otherwise no-one would know what was getting discussed.

Same again, if it's titled Blah blah blah (live in Mongolia) thats how you should enter it. No-one should be telling you to remove it.

If its only mentioned in the liner notes that its recorded in Mongolia, then you can add that info to the annotation.

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

mudcrow wrote:

Same again, if it's titled Blah blah blah (live in Mongolia) thats how you should enter it. No-one should be telling you to remove it.

LiveTrackStyle: "TrackTitles should not contain ExtraTitleInformation about the date and venue of the live performance. This information belongs into the ReleaseAnnotation."

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

mdhowe wrote:
mudcrow wrote:

Same again, if it's titled Blah blah blah (live in Mongolia) thats how you should enter it. No-one should be telling you to remove it.

LiveTrackStyle: "TrackTitles should not contain ExtraTitleInformation about the date and venue of the live performance. This information belongs into the ReleaseAnnotation."

the actual line is

If all tracks on a Release are live, the release should have the ReleaseAttribute "live", and TrackTitles should not contain ExtraTitleInformation about the date and venue of the live performance. This information belongs into the ReleaseAnnotation.

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

True. I just skimmed over it before to find the part I read last night. The part I should have quoted is this:

If only some tracks on a Release are live, append " (live)" to the MainTitle, like this:
"MainTitle (live)"
Add all date and venue information to the ReleaseAnnotation

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

The LiveTrackStyle page also says:

Status: This is a ProposedStyleGuideline.

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

I didn't notice that (I know, it's right there at the top), but it doesn't change my opinion though. Until there is a guideline telling us how to vote, I will continue to vote no on these edits because I disagree. A had a look in the mailing list and there was a big discussion (which I haven't read yet) but there was no RFC or RFV. Maybe it's time we did that?

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

I disagree with voting no on what are valid edits (that don't go against the existing styleguidelines)
I disagree with removing version info from track titles. And date & venue ARE version info for some tracks.
I also disagree with reordering and changing version info as proposed in that style guide.

In short, I disagree with the whole proposed style.

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

mudcrow wrote:

I disagree with voting no on what are valid edits (that don't go against the existing styleguidelines)
I disagree with removing version info from track titles. And date & venue ARE version info for some tracks.
I also disagree with reordering and changing version info as proposed in that style guide.

In short, I disagree with the whole proposed style.

and I agree with everything you just said.

~mo

Re: Liner Note Accuracy vs. Assumed Artist Intent

Joan Whittaker wrote:

Whether or not Foxey Lady is or is not artist intent is, I think, at this distance from the original recording irrelevant.

It has been written as Foxey Lady for nearly 40 years now and if it has not been amended in all that time by whatever record company reissues it, time and again, then to my mind it is "Foxey".

As Jimi Hendrix has been dead for 36 years we will never know his intention and, therefore, we can only go by usage over intervening period between first release and now.

I'm new to MusicBrainz and the forums, hello everyone!

Concentrating on misspellings, not capitalisation or confusion caused by language and design choices, I agree with Joan here. I would be inclined to go with whatever the published title is until it is re-released by the rights holder with a correction.

As well as Foxey Lady, another fairly well known example is Cemetry Gates by The Smiths, which as far as I know was never corrected on any subsequent re-releases or in fact any cover versions I've come across.

I don't think it's a trivial issue either as these sorts of details are all part of the history of the music. I can't see "Foxey Lady" or "Cemetry Gates" ever being corrected, time has seen to it that that is simply what the songs are called regardless of spelling errors. Here is a more recent and less well known example which I have just submitted an edit for. Time will tell what it ends up being called :)

So, with regards to Kerensky's original post I would go with "Accuracy to the Release information" as the most important. Whether I am listening to a particular release on CD, Vinyl or MP3 I am listening to the same track, not for example "I'm So Board I'm Going to Sleep" when playing the CD and "I'm So Bored I'm Going to Sleep" when playing the MP3. I think "Accuracy to what we believe the artist's intent is" is a tricky one and the onus is on the artist or their publisher to make the correction if they see fit to. Who are we to correct Jimi, Moz or indeed Jenn Ghetto :)

Interesting discussion. Good work going on here at MusicBrainz.

Cheers.