Topic: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Hey folks, first post here.  I am trying to figure out what to do for some live tracks on a compilation album.  I search a little on the forums but couldn't find a definitive answer.  Does (live) get added to the end of the track title? Is it ANYWHERE in the tags at all (not just in the musicbrainz database?)  I looked at some other examples, and there are things annotated on the tracks that say "Live at such and such theater on 01/01/2001" etc.  How do I get that to reflect in the actual tags of the song so that I can differentiate between live and studio tracks with the same name?  Thank you for help.

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Picard can't use annotations yet. You can link a recording to it's work with the "live" attribute, which is machine-readable (though you'll need a plugin to use that information in your files). If the track list on the release mentions the track being live, you can add (live) to the track name. See Extra Title Information.

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

OK, thanks, so if I am understanding correctly, there is a "live" attribute? Is that similar to "compilation" with a Boolean value? So in the future there could be a plugin to use as a personal preference to add (live) to track names that have that live attribute set? If so, I will leave the (live) out of the track name in the database.  I am still trying to learn all of this but so far it has been so overwhelmingly useful for me.  I thank all of you for that.  With that being said, I noticed on another album, there is ONE song on the album that has a featured artist, so the artist field says "Artist feat. Another Artist", and the compilation flag is set to 1 for all of the songs.  In some players that makes the album come up as a "Various Artist" album.  This should not be set as a compilation, right?

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Information like the live attribute between works and recordings is not available in standard Picard; and even if it was, it's not clear how it would be implemented. It's probably not available currently except to a heavily customising/monkey-patching plugin that tweaks all the XML parsing from the web service - so not for the faint of heart.

In the current logic, yes compilation should be set to 1 in that case. Compilation just means "more than one track artist" currently - which historically is what iTunes required to behave sensibly. It did not used to properly respect album artist in the way other apps do and required this flag to group all the tracks properly.

You can work around this by either forcing it to 0 in tagger script (should work I think) or by using the "feat. artist in titles" plugin to ensure all the main artists are the same (up to you to decide where you would like feats. in your tags).
There is some argument that this is no longer true in more recent iTunes versions, so it may change. See http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/PICARD-199

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Yeah I have tried the plugin for moving featured artist to the title field for my collection, but the Compilation flag is still set to 1. Thus still making it appear under "Various Artists" in players like Amarok.  On the other hand, most players behave as you stated iTunes used to behave.  They only look at Artist field, and not Album Artist, so you get a million different Artists in the Artist list with one song each, all pointing to the same Album, however, they ignore the compilation flag. Ugh... I have always been super crazy with the tags, and stuff like that always drove me bananas, now musicbrainz is helping out, but it makes some of the players even worse, enough that I am ripping my hair out.  Please, tell me what I have to do to help and make this better.  I don't like using plugins, and deviating from a "standard" set of rules.  Is it just a matter of getting other players on board with the tagging?

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Bah, iTunes. I always manually remove those nasty itunescompilation tags in foobar2000. Unfortunately it cannot be unset in Picard. How is Amarok with mass-tagging?

7 (edited by phunyguy 2012-06-13 13:04:21)

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

If I remember correctly (It's been a while) the file naming was a bit lacking, like you couldn't do conditionals, so even if a tag is empty or null, it still tries to use it.  Whereas in Picard, you have if(), etc.  I could be wrong though.

EDIT:

mfmeulenbelt wrote:

Picard can't use annotations yet. You can link a recording to it's work with the "live" attribute, which is machine-readable (though you'll need a plugin to use that information in your files). If the track list on the release mentions the track being live, you can add (live) to the track name. See Extra Title Information.

I just got a note on an edit I made that said (live) should be added to the "disambiguation comment" field, as well as the venue and date... I thought that was for the Annotation field?  I'm so lost...  "Do you have the CD set, and does it show (live) after the title on track 9? If not, then it should be added as a disambiguation comment (a good idea anyway if you can include the venue and date). "

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

For a recording, the disambiguation field is for distinguishing between two recordings of the same name. So for a live version of a song you could put 'live' in the disambiguation field. This prevents users from mistaking the two as duplicate recordings. However, disambiguation comments are only visible in MB; ARIK, you cannot use them in Picard (yet).

Annotation is for other information that does not fit elsewhere, for example some interesting notes about the recording/release etc. Again, cannot be used by picard.

Thats said, you CAN use the disambiguation field for releases in picard using tagger script, e.g. you can add comments such as "Itunes deluxe edition" or "40th anniversary edition" to the title etc. if they are in the database.

E.g: http://musicbrainz.org/release/1d0bb190 … f15cf6f446

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Also, I think you can turn the compilation check off by adding the following to tagger script:

$set(%compilation%,0)

However, that would affect all compilations. I'd recommend loading the releases you want to unset, save them, then remove the script line. That way you won't turn off genuine compilations if you load them afterwards.

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

You could also try

$set(%compilation%,$if($eq(%albumartist%,Various Artists),1,0))

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Lixobix wrote:

For a recording, the disambiguation field is for distinguishing between two recordings of the same name. So for a live version of a song you could put 'live' in the disambiguation field. This prevents users from mistaking the two as duplicate recordings. However, disambiguation comments are only visible in MB; ARIK, you cannot use them in Picard (yet).

Annotation is for other information that does not fit elsewhere, for example some interesting notes about the recording/release etc. Again, cannot be used by picard.

Thats said, you CAN use the disambiguation field for releases in picard using tagger script, e.g. you can add comments such as "Itunes deluxe edition" or "40th anniversary edition" to the title etc. if they are in the database.

E.g: http://musicbrainz.org/release/1d0bb190 … f15cf6f446

This is exactly what I needed!  Thanks!  Now, I have another question to expand on this.  I have some albums that are a full length live recording, Does that need to have any disambiguation comments? Or just the live attribute set? What happens if there is a CD with mostly live songs, and 1-2 studio recordings? Does the live attribute NOT get set there? For Example, http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/57 … 799aba44cc - This doesn't say anywhere that it is a live recording, over two days.  It only has the "Extra Type" field set as "live".  It just seems there should be more.

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Nothing really /needs/ to have disambiguation comments. They are really database navigation aids. However for live recordings they are especially useful as it allows you to easily separate them from the studio recording and live recordings at other venues etc.

With that Foo Fighters release, technically all the recordings (your link was to the release group, not a recording) should be linked to works and the ones that are 'live' would have the live attribute set on the link to the work. Most of the database has no recording<->work links though. It's time consuming to add; difficult and is relatively new functionality.

Having said this, with that release you could set disambiguation comments for all the recordings on the disc. As there are likely many live recordings of each of these tracks, adding "live" is insufficient. Here's an example of some recordings with some of them having proper disambiguation:

http://musicbrainz.org/search?query=1%2 … d=advanced

Here's an example of one of them done "properly": http://musicbrainz.org/recording/d6c8fd … d431b13d3e

1,000,000 (live, 2008-08-25: Toledo, OH, USA)
~ Recording by Nine Inch Nails
...

Relationships
live recording of:     1,000,000 (2008-08-25)

....

Related works
1,000,000

When writing disambiguation comments for live recordings, most experienced editors try to follow the spirit of http://musicbrainz.org/doc/History:Live_Track_Style or http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Specif … e_bootlegs in the comment; but there's no specific rule.

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

voiceinsideyou wrote:

When writing disambiguation comments for live recordings, most experienced editors try to follow the spirit of http://musicbrainz.org/doc/History:Live_Track_Style or http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Specif … e_bootlegs in the comment; but there's no specific rule.

There is, actually :) http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Record … recordings

14 (edited by phunyguy 2012-06-15 13:37:08)

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Very good answers, folks.  I will have a look at all of this and use that as motivation to do my part, and clean up the collection of music I have. There are so many recordings, etc, that don't show up as "live", except that the release has the live attribute set.  I figure instead of trying to script my end, why not focus the efforts on the real issue.  You can expect to hear from me again on here because I am sure I will run into a snag.  Thanks again!

Edit: Already ran into a snag... http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Recording

That guideline states that a recording is meant to represent unique audio.  This means you:

    should normally merge recordings with the same ISRC.
    shouldn't normally merge recordings with different ISRCs.
    shouldn't merge different performances (which includes re-recordings, live versions and versions with different lyrics)
    shouldn't merge different recordings of a performance (e.g. a live bootleg recorded by multiple people)
    shouldn't merge different edits, mixes, remixes or remasters of a performance.
    shouldn't merge recordings which have conflicting relationships.

Please help me try to understand,

voiceinsideyou wrote:

Nothing really /needs/ to have disambiguation comments. They are really database navigation aids. However for live recordings they are especially useful as it allows you to easily separate them from the studio recording and live recordings at other venues etc.

With that Foo Fighters release, technically all the recordings (your link was to the release group, not a recording) should be linked to works and the ones that are 'live' would have the live attribute set on the link to the work. Most of the database has no recording<->work links though. It's time consuming to add; difficult and is relatively new functionality.

Having said this, with that release you could set disambiguation comments for all the recordings on the disc. As there are likely many live recordings of each of these tracks, adding "live" is insufficient. Here's an example of some recordings with some of them having proper disambiguation:

http://musicbrainz.org/search?query=1%2 … d=advanced

Here's an example of one of them done "properly": http://musicbrainz.org/recording/d6c8fd … d431b13d3e

When writing disambiguation comments for live recordings, most experienced editors try to follow the spirit of http://musicbrainz.org/doc/History:Live_Track_Style or http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Specif … e_bootlegs in the comment; but there's no specific rule.

In your reply, you said that a recording should be linked to works... but the guidelines state that a live recording IS different and should not be merged.

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Recordings and works are different things.

A work is "a distinct intellectual or artistic creation" such as a song.

A recording is a captured performance of a work.

One work may have multiple recordings.

See: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Work


Here's an example:

http://musicbrainz.org/work/5694cfa5-23 … b6ffd5f962

The work is "1,000,000".

There is one studio recording.

There is one video recording (I think this is a different studio/rehearsal take).

There are also several live recordings, including:

(live, 2008-08-25: Toledo, OH, USA)
(live, 2008-12-07: Lights Over Portland: Rose Garden Arena, Portland, OR, USA)
(live, 2008-12-12: Lights Over Sacramento: Arco Arena, Sacramento, CA, USA)
(video, live, 2009-02-22: Soundwave Festival, Sydney, Australia)

All these recordings are separate so should not be merged.

However, they are all recordings of one and the same work, "1,000,000".

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

reosarevok wrote:
voiceinsideyou wrote:

When writing disambiguation comments for live recordings, most experienced editors try to follow the spirit of http://musicbrainz.org/doc/History:Live_Track_Style or http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Specif … e_bootlegs in the comment; but there's no specific rule.

There is, actually :) http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Record … recordings

wtf, style community actually managed to agree on anything related to live stuff!? This is unconscionable!

But excellent.

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Also, yes, what lixobix said - great explanation.

Most recordings in the database are not linked to works. During the NGS migration only recordings which had composition or lyrics entries had works automatically created.

If you're serious about helping us merged, tidy and create works you'll want to look at using Firefox or Crome with these user scripts which make the process which more efficient (but be careful!)
Batch-add "recording of" relationships between recordings and works + create new works
Relate recordings to works from a release page

There is also these two which can be useful
Batch link a work to its recordings
Batch-add relationships to works from an artist's works page

Now I just need a userscript that automates "Set recording disambiguation comment from bootleg release name per guidelines" and could easily tidy up the rest of those Nine Inch Nails 1,000,000 recordings and a lot more... :)

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Lixobix wrote:

For a recording, the disambiguation field is for distinguishing between two recordings of the same name. So for a live version of a song you could put 'live' in the disambiguation field. This prevents users from mistaking the two as duplicate recordings. However, disambiguation comments are only visible in MB; ARIK, you cannot use them in Picard (yet).

Actually, you can. They're not tagged into the files by default, but you can script them into wherever you want with something like:

$set(title,%title% \(%_recordingcomment%\))

(This would place the comment in the title)

See also http://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainz_Picard/Tags

Re: Compilation Albums with some live tracks

Hawke wrote:

Actually, you can. They're not tagged into the files by default, but you can script them into wherever you want with something like:

$set(title,%title% \(%_recordingcomment%\))

(This would place the comment in the title)

See also http://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainz_Picard/Tags

Ah, good point. Haven't used %recordingcomment% so I forgot about it.