1 Topic by UnrealMiniMe (edited by UnrealMiniMe 2012-09-01 03:18:46)

  • Registered: 2012-08-31

Topic: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

It currently takes two weeks for new edits to be approved and finalized.  This waiting period obviously makes sense for the purpose of ensuring the database isn't corrupted by spurious and poor-quality changes, which would affect everyone.

At the same time, I think it would be extremely useful to allow people the opt-in choice of tagging their files with pending data for a release instead of the settled data:  It's difficult to tag files manually with all of the tags that Musicbrainz updates, and two weeks is an agonizing wait time for simply importing updated tracklists and metadata into a tagger like Picard.

Being forced to wait two weeks also creates the possibility that people will get caught up in real life and totally forget to come back and retag their files for, say...a couple years.  You could say that's their problem and their loss, but what if they already submitted AcoustID edits for the previously incorrect track list?  I did this last night for the first 2/3 of a disc's track list that looked correct at a glance (it wasn't), recognized my mistake, and fixed the broken track list today.  Now, my AcoustID's may be attached to the wrong tracks for at least two weeks, depending on what other piece of metadata/key they're tied to...and longer if I forget to come back, retag my files, and resubmit the AcoustID's for the right tracks in two weeks.

Is there any way to view and delete or cancel AcoustID edits, BTW?  I submitted the correct AcoustID's for the right track numbers on the disc, but it turns out the original tracklist skipped some titles that I had to insert after submitting AcoustID's.  Now, I'm not sure whether the AcoustID's will stick with the original track numbers (which would be correct in my case) or be bumped down along with the titles I moved down (which would mess them up).

MusicBrainz has a great strength in its quality control process, but it also has a usability weakness in that - as far as I know - nobody can make their own decision to use newer unapproved edits.  (I'd love to find out I'm wrong and just missing the dark corner of the website that gives me the option though.)  To draw a parallel, it's like people being stuck for ages with buggy software that made it into Debian Testing, without being allowed the option of just upgrading to Debian Sid. ;)

I have no idea how difficult it would be to implement on this site, but allowing users the fine-grained ability to selectively import data from recent unapproved edits (especially our own) would drastically speed up our tagging process and eliminate frustrations.  Done right, it would also allow us to correct mistaken AcoustID edits faster.

Finally, I think adopting this suggestion would encourage more users to submit edits in the first place:  As it stands, if we want to tag our own music without a two week wait period, we have to edit our tags manually for releases that are incorrect in the MusicBrainz database...so once we're done with that, we're going to be a bit burnt out and unlikely to want to duplicate that work on the MusicBrainz site.  (I have personally neglected to update the database a number of times for this reason.)  Allowing people to do the work all in one place (the MusicBrainz site) and immediately import our new changes into Picard should result in more people deciding it's worth the trouble to contribute.

  • Registered: 2010-09-09

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

It's definitely something that's come up before (there's a ticket at http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-3462 which would need to be implemented before Picard could support it). Unfortunately it is difficult to implement with the way our editing system currently works. :(

You can remove incorrect acoustids by clicking "unlink" on the "fingerprints" tab on the page for each recording.

  • Registered: 2012-08-12

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

Yes I second the need for this.
Surely this is (one of) the most needed features for MBs and as it has been a year since the request  or is it 5 years old

http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/ticket/3514

so I imagine nothing is done. I read the IRC log from a year ago and there was not much interest in fixing it despite an understanding that it is an issue for new users.

And from what I understand it isn't even scheduled anymore.

http://scheduling.ocharles.org.uk/results

It is like it is not even a problem......I suppose that si one way of dealing with it.

  • From: Tartu, EE
  • Registered: 2010-11-24

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

The main problem some of us have with this is that it makes it desirable for people to change the data to what they want to tag with (even if incorrect according to our guidelines) and then ignore any comments or votes on their changes since they will have tagged their stuff already - which seems like a likely way of getting bad data in.

  • Registered: 2012-08-12

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

I thought it was too difficult to do. Rewrite the DB schemas/architecture, etc was implied just to get a button/selection,etc in Picard to for a "use unapproved info" or maybe an additional  tagger option on the website for unedited  "unapproved" so you can import into Picard/other taggers.

But I don't understand how it effects quality here.

Current situation.

a) Person enters (incorrect) data
b) this is voted on if it is accepted or wait 2 weeks if no votes it is added to the MB DB.
c) The person can retag their files. (often 2 weeks later)

Proposed situation

a) Persons enters (incorrect) data
c) The person can retag their files by selecting a special  "use unapproved info" option for that release.
b) this is voted on if it is accepted or wait 2 weeks if no votes it is added to the MB DB.

The info in the MB DB is the same. That process in the procedure are just changed.

If you enter erroneous data they will be voted against, if you ignore the comments (like some do anyway) then it will be rejected from the DB.

  • From: Tartu, EE
  • Registered: 2010-11-24

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

Yeah, it requiring huge changes to tables is the problem the technical people have with it (which is probably harder to solve :) ). And what you say is true, but the difference is that now it has to pass for the people to tag with that data, while the other way around, it does not - so it encourages adding stuff the wrong way because "I want this and if they don't they can vote no". Maybe it wouldn't be a problem, but it still scares me.

7 Reply by Rovastar (edited by Rovastar 2012-09-04 13:27:24)

  • Registered: 2012-08-12

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

Ok cool I do understand the issue then.

I understand your concerns but I do think they are minor compared to the new users you lose by not having this (BTW I don't mean tagging the unapproved edits by default just the option/jump through hoops if needed with warning messages to do this). I have to retag my music collection in sections and reg member to come back to them 2 weeks down the line. I think some editors established members have forgotten what is like for a newcomer to tag 10 of thousands of files and the experience for a new user when using MB for the first time.

I also imagine that this is all linked to "viewing unaccepted/approved data" too. Sometimes I just want to see what the overall changes will look like after the edits/merge/etc. Any open online crowd sourced
project like this seeing the edited info quickly is useful. If they do not then some people just don't think it is working I edit a bit in Wikipedia and OpenStreetMap and if the changes were not show frequently they would be complaints about things not working/when will the edits appear.

I know OpenStreetMap in the past has lost contributors because the edits were not displayed quick enough and people thought there we not working/rejected for some reason.

nowadays people just expect (rightly or wrongly) more speedy responses and no patience. It is funny how have just changed a load of text on the Musicbrainz wiki's main page and it appears instantly but fixing a typo in an album I just submitted will take 2 weeks.

I thoroughly understand the need for the process to be vetted/voted on for high quality of data but you still need to encourage new users not make it a more elite marketplace for just those experienced user with a high barrier of entry.

I might see if I can help as by day job I am Web Solution Architect/Consultant but not really a dev but maybe I do something if I have time.

I haven't looked any any docs at all for MB but I imagine there is a static DB of approved stuff and then some process  to get approved stuff into this. If it is batched (daily/hourly) then I can see this being a major workaround/rewrite but if it is dynamic (constantly there are new edits being approved automatically) then I don't see how this should be too difficult. Just hit a link to start off the process of approving it (the code already works as it is used all the time when an edit is approved) but do not commit it to the database just store it temporarily, so people can see the info/use it to retag.

I have a friend with an large music collection but I just know he will be frustrated if I tried to encourage him to retag and contribute heavily to musicbrainz as sometimes for new users it is not all that friendly and things like this issue are major reasons for it.

  • From: Milwaukee
  • Registered: 2008-07-24

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

I would also love to have this option in Picard.

I noticed that after adding a new release, it is immediately available in Picard.  It seems that an edited "unapproved" version should also be feasible.

  • Registered: 2012-08-12

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

Yes that is right a brand new entered release appears without any formal voting/approval process.

reosarevok I hope you are not scared by this. ;-)

It is just the edits of existing releases, etc that do not appear.

10 Reply by UnrealMiniMe (edited by UnrealMiniMe 2012-09-12 21:39:51)

  • Registered: 2012-08-31

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

Thanks for the replies everyone, and sorry I haven't been back.

It's a shame that it's so difficult to implement this functionality from a technical standpoint.  If anyone were able to put in the work though (here's me volunteering everyone but myself to do it, basically...fair, huh? ;)), I do tend to think the quantity and quality of edits would improve.

I understand the objection that lazy users might change the metadata for a release against guidelines simply to get it into a format they personally prefer for importing, but the truth is that the web interface is still much less efficient than client software for this purpose.  Ultimately, anyone wanting to tag their own data against guidelines in an ad hoc manner could still do this much more easily by importing the current Musicbrainz data and using their client to alter the fields they want to change, instead of actually editing the Musicbrainz database through this website and importing the data afterward.  As a result, I think the vast majority of users actually editing the data on this site for the purposes of tagging their own music would only take the trouble to use the web interface in the first place if they genuinely thought they were "giving back" too, given their best effort understanding of the guidelines.  Letting people import pending data into their client would really be little more than a courtesy saying, "Hey, we won't make you enter it twice if you don't want to wait two weeks."  (As a side note, this functionality would be of no use to malicious vandals deleting or corrupting tons of information:  The two week waiting period would still be in place, and being able to use pending data would be no additional incentive to vandals with no intention of using the data they're destroying.)

As a side note, there may be a partial remedy that might be technically easier to implement:  I've noticed myself uploading new releases recently, then immediately realizing I made a few small mistakes.  The release posts immediately, but any edit takes two weeks unless I cancel the entire release and resubmit it in corrected form...even though I'm the one who uploaded the release in the first place, and no one has edited since.  Could the rules be altered to allow the original submitter to make auto-edits as long as they're the only editor who has touched a release so far?  Obviously this should not be allowed after a second editor makes a change, because that would give unvetted submitters too much power to squelch revisions, but until that second editor actually shows up, this seems like a logical way to avoid senseless frustration for new releases.

  • Registered: 2007-07-09

Re: Allow importing pending edits into Picard?

UnrealMiniMe wrote:

As a side note, there may be a partial remedy that might be technically easier to implement:  I've noticed myself uploading new releases recently, then immediately realizing I made a few small mistakes.  The release posts immediately, but any edit takes two weeks unless I cancel the entire release and resubmit it in corrected form...even though I'm the one who uploaded the release in the first place, and no one has edited since.  Could the rules be altered to allow the original submitter to make auto-edits as long as they're the only editor who has touched a release so far?  Obviously this should not be allowed after a second editor makes a change, because that would give unvetted submitters too much power to squelch revisions, but until that second editor actually shows up, this seems like a logical way to avoid senseless frustration for new releases.

+1
THIS would be a great help!!